What happened to the Saturday Avy Thread?

[petebanta]

Looks like the discussion I was posting to got nuked. Regarding 4/25/09...

I have been lurking here for years now for MW info, but felt compelled to finally jump in after what happened on Saturday.

I think it was extremely lucky it didn't go worse for anyone there, and it is obvious that people in the know knew to stay away or be more cautious, and the large majority of those there thought they were in no danger, and they were all very wrong.

Sitting at lunch rocks - Dumb.

Skiing up close to a crevasse - Dumber.

Dropping into the same aspect you just saw slide and thinking becaue it is sunny and lots of people are around, and that because you're a good skier that you'll be OK - Dumbest of all.

Sorry, I am not going to sugar-coat it, because everyone who was there needs some tough love. You fell for the number one reason people get hurt/killed - The Hueristic Trap. If you don't know what that is, get training.

I'm sure practically everyone there had no proper gear, much less knowledge of how to use it. The guy in the slide is lucky to be alive. Straight up. If you had just been a foot under that heavy slough, think you could just dig yourself out? Think again. You would not be able to and you'd have 15 minutes to live, if that. Your cavalier attitude WILL catch up with you (again)...

Do you think others could get to you and find you in time? Did you have a transceiver and a partner who knew how to use his? Shovel? Probe? I bet not, and you really should consider yourself Very lucky. Even in low avy conditions these are REQUIRED when you are in avalanche terrain. Tux is avalanche terrain, for sure. And rule 1 is be prepared when in avy terrain. ESPECIALLY when there's a MODERATE risk, as posted. It's true that avy gear has NEVER (reported) saved anyone in MW, but wouldn't it be nice to be the 1st? No gear means practically no chance to be found if buried.

Tucks will always be like this, unfortuneately. I have seen it worse than what these pictures seem to indicate. Peope who have the gear & training need to call out those who do not. Of course they will not like it, and nobody wants to be the person who speaks up/says what needs to be said, and be "that guy", but hearing what they need to hear may save them (or someone else who reads it) some day, and so it is totally worth it to be "that guy", IMHO.

Since we're on the subject, I would HIGHLY recommend the course provided by CGI (Chauvin Giudes International). I have taken 2 course with them, and they are VERY knowledgeable, specifically about MW and the area.

Sorry if that was a blatant plug. Let the flaming of The Noob commence!

[coreyb]

yea i'm pretty disappointed that thread was admin-removed... shame on the admin... it was healthy discussion full of heated critique... i'll paste the last two posts from page 5, but i'm sincerely hoping the admin revives the thread:

Originally Posted by TDawg

Wow, looks like I really stirred up the bees nest! Everyone's a critic, real easy over the web. I'll look over this thread later when I have more time and comment further maybe.

I just want it known that I don't think this is funny and I don't take it lightly. This scared the crap out of me. Sure I made some mistakes, lesson learned. And I never thought that "Moderate meant safe," I don't know where that came from.

And the ski patrol lady was just doing her job. Maybe tired after a long day of dealing with people, but a woman in her position should maybe try being a little more friendly in her tone and mannerisms, she just rubbed me the wrong way. Then I safely hiked over to the snowfields without having to cross the river. The comments on my webshots were typed while tired and still a bit annoyed by her rude attitude, but it's all good.

Originally Posted by PwdrHound

HaHa...I hear you bro but, we can get harrassed all the way to Pinkham if you try hard enough....or not so hard enough! Snow is my drug of choice, I don't need any other supplements but, I would hate for the area to become policed. I mean, as long as they stay in the Bowl, that's fine with me. Really, I think much of the problem is the over-kill, egotistical, macho, male...I don't think gun toting fools with similar drinking habits would do any good but, hey, I hear you.

What about eliminating avy forecasting for the area??? I know the snow rangers don't want to hear that and, you gotta love these guys. They are living a dream and keeping everyone as safe as possible but, that would sure change things.

Then there is the good people who make up the Volunteer Ski Patrol (Love them too). What if they went away? Seriously, I think these two factors allow people to percieve an inherent yet, non-existent, safety factor. Sure, if something goes wrong, your gonna get burritoed out, if something goes really bad, well, you'll be present at your funeral. These are valuable and wonderful services but, I just don't know what we could do to make sure people are being responsible.

As a side note, I was passing by HoJo's a few weeks ago and I actually heard someone ask one of the volunteer Ski Patrollers what time they did their sweep????? ***!! This is what we are dealing with!!!!

"Your right to swing a fist ends where my nose begins" or something to that effect. I think in the case of Avy, it's even more severe. Unlike hurting someone by throwing a punch, no one ever intends to set-off an avy. But, what if you trigger something and it takes out a bunch of people below you?? That would really suck, really!

I hate to say it but, maybe during the crazy spring month, maybe the forest service should limit traffic on the Tux Trail (Highway). I don't know, I would hate to restrict people from enjoying their National Forest. I mean, it's crazy what goes on up there in the Spring. Last year the inferno brought out some 4000 people! Upon arriving on the East Side, I decided to go somewhere else, it's just too many people in one "Zone".

[RR]

Solid reasoning can be rendered opaque by forgetting that folks don't like to be hammered on. I was typing a response and when I submitted it the tread did not exist.

This is not TGR. Heated discussions can have value, but it is more typical that they create lingering animosity and close down dialogue on the actual topic while invective, etc flies around. I was a little suprised the thread went away, but it could have gotten much nastier in very short order.

Sad but true.

[surfsnowywaves]

Some folks post because they know that their posts can be removed by an Admin - so should we get rid of Admins too?



It's sunny and 85 outside today, I think I'm going to go enjoy the solar gain a bit on slopes angled about 8 degrees with a western exposure.

[coreyb]

hm, don't recall any "hammering" but i'd like to say that sometimes truths are revealed through brutal honesty... a lot of tdawg's comments showed his lack of experience and proved he made some bad decisions... to read over the entire thread would be an EXCELLENT learning tool for himself and others... i honestly think tdawg will be upset his thread was deleted...

[bumknee]

why not just lock it where it was if the Admin. thought it was out of control.. There are a whole bunch people who will see that video and conclude that avalanches are no big deal ... I'm disappointed with the out and out removal

[RR]

Originally Posted by coreyb

hm, don't recall any "hammering" but i'd like to say that sometimes truths are revealed through brutal honesty... ...

If I seek to study with a teacher, his criticism is expected, whether he is brutally honest, cleverly honest or simply lets me come to my own conclusions by setting the path before me.

In order for these things to have their best effect, I first have to agree to receive them as teacher deems best. Absent that agreement, there is no point.

[drewvw]

I had way too much going on this weekend and missed the thread...

I wish I had seen it or another one can be started where people don't get out of control...in the interest of education.

[Fanatic1]

Alas, there was much to be learned by those so inclined...

[twintipper]

I love how the avi forcast today has bold and capitalized words all over. maybe people will start getting the idea that it isn't a local ski resort and more caution needs to be taken when traveling about out there.

[petebanta]

Originally Posted by drewvw

I had way too much going on this weekend and missed the thread...

I wish I had seen it or another one can be started where people don't get out of control...in the interest of education.

Basically some young fellow posted about the avy he caused, as if it were cool. He was quickly rebuked and schooled for his ignorance & arrogance.

Hopefully he and others learn to check and respect the avy reports.

Sunny nice day does not equal safe up there, as many assume wrongly.

Personally, I think the people sitting at lunch rocks (of which this same person is also guilty, only adding to people perceiving him as clueless) is just as bad as what happened in the bowl. If Sluice had gone, or ice had dropped, it could have been a major disaster. Yes, it all ended well (other than those hurt in falls, whom I hope are all ok), but learn from this, we must [Yoda].

[coreyb]

Originally Posted by RR

If I seek to study with a teacher, his criticism is expected, whether he is brutally honest, cleverly honest or simply lets me come to my own conclusions be setting the path before me.

In order for these things to have their best effect, I first have to agree to receive them as teacher deems best. Absent that agreement, there is no point.

so you think tdawg and the rest can learn nothing from that thread. wow. i kinda give up. can see that the thread is not going to be brought back and that this forum is irresponsibly moderated. sorry. just calling it how i see it. i could see if one or two individual posts were deleted or edited to remove direct insults (like rog's first reply) but to delete the entire thread is just wrong. i hope you come to realize this and restore it and if you truly feel you need to, lock it from further reply. perhaps the forum members could vote on whether the thread should be restored... or would that be too democratic for this "community forum"?

[RR]

Originally Posted by coreyb

so you think tdawg and the rest can learn nothing from that thread. wow. i kinda give up. can see that the thread is not going to be brought back and that this forum is irresponsibly moderated. sorry. just calling it how i see it. i could see if one or two individual posts were deleted or edited to remove direct insults (like rog's first reply) but to delete the entire thread is just wrong. i hope you come to realize this and restore it and if you truly feel you need to, lock it from further reply. perhaps the forum members could vote on whether the thread should be restored... or would that be too democratic for this "community forum"?

It was not I who deleted it.

Your call on what is responsible in your own views, not mine or anyone elses. It gets more complicated when more folks are involved.

This Board is where it is because, along with offering information and safe communication, it is stable and not prone to flame fests. We are a gateway for many; it's a responsibility we take seriously.

Global Truths we leave to philosophers. TGR can have all the heated arguments

[M@]

The thread was deleted by the original poster.

M@

[coreyb]

Originally Posted by M@

The thread was deleted by the original poster.

M@

dang. no way. my apologies to RR and the other mods. i obviously spoke too quickly and am embarassed. i am really shocked to see he deleted the thread. i thought he was starting to come around and see that most of us were trying to turn it into a healthy discussion/critique.